Listen and learn from the best in local government

At LeaderGov we want to equip you to lead well.   These enlightening podcasts, from top local government and industry leaders, will help you gain valuable insights into a variety of leadership, management and teamwork topics, so you can lead better. 

You can also listen to LeaderGov Podcasts via Apple, Google Podcast or Spotify. 

Transcript 

[00:00:00] Bill Stark: Well, good day, everybody. My name is Bill Stark and welcome to our LeaderGov podcast. Tim Fenburt, my business partner, he and I love, love, love investing in local government leaders all around the country. And one of the ways we do that is with this video. Our podcast. And so we thank you for listening today.

[00:00:21] Thank you for downloading this. Please share it with other leaders and employees, even at your local government agencies. Our topic today is emotional intelligence, E I. And we know that this is a critical skill That as leaders, we need to be really informed on and a be good at it ourselves. And then be help other people along the way.

[00:00:45] When, when we run into tension and emotion packed situations, which nobody in local government has emotional situations, I'm sure. But we're excited to have a really super guest with us today. I want to introduce to you, Kevin Catlin from the county administrator in Kalamazoo County. Kevin, how are you today, sir?

[00:01:07] Kevin Catlin: Very well. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

[00:01:11] Bill Stark: Yeah. Well, I so, I'm so appreciative of the fact that you could join us and share some of your thoughts, some of your experiences around this topic of emotional intelligence. local government leaders love hearing from other local government leaders, and you've got some, some stories you're going to share today in this area of emotional intelligence.

[00:01:28] We're looking forward to hearing from you. to hearing from you. I did want to tell our audience a little of your background. You're currently the county administrator for Kalamazoo County, Michigan, about 1000 employees, about 350 million budget. Kevin is an experienced municipal and county manager. He's got a great passion for public service, and he's worked as both city manager and county manager in his career.

[00:01:52] very much a strategic thinker. Kevin really enjoys being involved in projects and encourage long term vision and planning. I love that, Kevin. Kevin is a skilled cyber security professional with expertise in securing government information systems. Kevin continues to focus on issues related to cyber security and critical infrastructure.

[00:02:13] As a member of the coveted council sponsored by the U. S. Department of Homeland Security The state, local, tribal, and territorial, territorial government coordinating council. That's a mouthful, but it sounds like an important, important agency for, for critical infrastructure. Kevin's a law enforcement and emergency management professional with extensive education and experience in disaster planning, incident management, and community Police relations.

[00:02:41] Kevin has experience at all three levels of government and graduated from University of Illinois. So that's great. It's really nice to kind of hear a little context, Kevin, of your life. You definitely have had a varied career. I like the idea of being in all three levels of government. Tell us real quickly if you would you've lived in Michigan, how long you family up there?

[00:03:03] What's your, what's that like?

[00:03:05] Kevin Catlin: Absolutely. So we moved to Michigan in May of 2022. So been here a little over two years where we were in Illinois prior to that. I have a fiancee in a, in a dog. His name is Apollo. My fiancee's name is Nate, and we're actually getting married here in October. So lots of planning underway.

[00:03:25] Yes.

[00:03:26] Bill Stark: Wow,

[00:03:26] Kevin Catlin: that's awesome.

[00:03:27] Bill Stark: That's, that's really neat. So you, but you're have been in and around the Midwest. It sounds like for some time.

[00:03:32] Kevin Catlin: Absolutely. Yeah. So Illinois Oklahoma, South Dakota, Michigan.

[00:03:38] Bill Stark: Nice. Nice. Excellent. Excellent. Well, let's just jump right in, Kevin. I wanted to ask you first, you know, tell me about, you know, your history in local government.

[00:03:47] I'm curious, have you ever worked for anybody who did a great job being very emotionally intelligent? Or maybe conversely, have you, have you ever had a boss or worked with somebody that was really had low E. I.? And if so, How did that affect you and the team, either positive or negative? Could you share any sort of a history story, if you will, from your past?

[00:04:13] Kevin Catlin: Yes, absolutely. This is such a great emerging topic that I'm so happy to be part of. So, you know, I'll start off by saying my journey in local government has taken me across several stages. I started at the Illinois Department of Transportation as a technical manager. Then I moved to the city of Tulsa, where I served as a management analyst for the police department, primarily, but for the city manager's office, I later became an assistant city manager and director of it for Brookings, South Dakota, followed by my role as city manager.

[00:04:41] In Springfield, Michigan, and before taking my current position in Kalamazoo County, I was the County Administrator of Boone County, Illinois, and so, as you know, and as you can tell, I've been all around and done a lot of jobs and have, you know, Really progressed and advanced my career in local government and love this profession.

[00:05:01] I would say that one of my most challenging experiences I had with a manager was during my time with IDOT. And so this manager often led with frustration and treated every situation as a crisis. Her lack of emotional intelligence created a high stress environment leading to decrease morale and productivity.

[00:05:20] It was difficult for the team to stay motivated. The constant sense of urgency often led to burnout as I really witnessed there. However, I would say one of my most privileged experiences was in Brooking South Dakota, where I had the privilege of working with a manager who exemplified ei in my opinion, he was highly self-aware, consistently attentive to the needs, uh, and the emotions of everyone around him.

[00:05:47] This city manager fostered a supportive and collaborative. Atmosphere were team members. I feel like felt valued and heard. So his approach not only enhanced our work experience, but also significantly improved the team's performance. The contrast, I would say, between the two experiences taught me that, you know, really the profound impact that emotional intelligence leadership can have on both individuals and the enterprise organization as a whole.

[00:06:15] Bill Stark: Yeah, I like the fact that you share two stories there. One, a story of frustration that impacted the work culture, probably the output, the attitudes. I, Could hear that kind of in your voice yet on the other side of the coin, a very engaged, connected leader. Some of us Kevin, more so than others are people, people, people oriented, sort of naturally drawn to people.

[00:06:39] Others on this podcast today are, you know, we did the disc assessment. So a lot of us are C's and D's. We're not as connected to the emotions of other people. So how do you, you know, they're in Kalamazoo County. How do you see good ER? helping at the county and the teams there. What's that look like on the ground there for you and your teams at Kalamazoo County?

[00:07:02] Kevin Catlin: So I would say with Kalamazoo County, a lot of it is about being Self aware. So I, you know, I always say to our team that being self aware aware helps us recognize how our emotions affect the behavior in decisions of not only ourselves, but others. So being self aware allows us to obviously remain objective in situations, remain composed, especially during challenging situations and challenging can be a personnel conflict or challenging could be some sort of a public safety.

[00:07:34] You know, situation too. So just being self aware, also having that empathy in the social skills. So we need to be empathetic in sharing our feelings with others and for others and of others. So, and, and the social skills to help just build and maintain those relationships, because you have to build that trust, you have to be approachable to be able to communicate effectively and then lead the teams towards those common goals.

[00:07:59] Bill Stark: You said composure to remain composed. I really, I like that word. How have you or how have you seen other people on your staff, on your teams learn to be more self aware? Do y'all talk about this or do you read books? Or how have you developed this, you know, with the people around you or even with yourself?

[00:08:21] How do you develop that self awareness?

[00:08:24] Kevin Catlin: I would say. So what we do and what I've strived to do is that during our department had meetings, we kind of rewind some of the board meetings that we have. There are often times where maybe the public or we may be have frustrated employees come up to the meeting.

[00:08:40] The, the dais or the podium rather, and talk to the board about something they're frustrated with. Maybe it's a concern. Maybe it's an inequity that they perceive, whatever it may be. Oftentimes, I don't respond in those situations. I stay composed. I collect my thoughts. I remain calm. And then I go back. And I try to meet with board leadership, right?

[00:09:03] And I try to educate board leadership, educate those employees on and, and, or the residents or constituents on why we do things a certain way, why you may be perceiving things a certain way. And I think that's really helped my team really understand the value. Remaining calm and collected and composed during a situation as it's unfolding to be able to collect your thoughts later.

[00:09:28] So that you're more articulate and in your response and more professional. And that's really helped. I think drive that value home.

[00:09:36] Bill Stark: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I like this idea. I think this is a good kind of best practice you're sharing, which is in your staff meetings a week or so after the commission meeting, the council meeting, just having a discussion about, wow, that was a really tension filled comment that that person made.

[00:09:52] How should we respond? And just having a discussion about how to respond and how to. How to feel the emotion because we we get a rise inside ourselves, right? We feel we feel some pressure coming, some excitement, some some frustrations coming on. And I love the idea that you just have a discussion with it with your team to keep these topics kind of relevant and fresh for them.

[00:10:16] That's that's a great idea.

[00:10:17] Kevin Catlin: Absolutely.

[00:10:19] Bill Stark: Well, what we're going to do right now, Kevin, we're going to pause just for a moment here in the podcast, and we're going to hear a quick commercial break from some folks who are investing in their leadership development through our LeaderGov cohort program, and then we'll be right back./

[00:10:36] For me, I love the LeaderGov format because it allows me to, Just to have discussions and dialogue. I think, I'm a person where I love to hear other people's perspective.

[00:10:45] And I think sometimes in silent, more classroom, lecture type trainings, I don't really get that. So you're hearing real experience from real people. the LeaderGov training is helping me be a better leader because I think a lot of the things that we're learning comes from a very holistic standpoint.

[00:10:59] So it's not just learning about conflict resolution. It's learning how to motivate your team. It's how it's learning how to inspire your team And I think being able to incorporate that and see how all of those things can work together to build a supportive and encouraging environment and I very much appreciate that. It gives us an opportunity to see things from different perspectives We get to listen to our peers and see what they're dealing with So it just helps me be better because i'm able to self reflect And say, okay, this is what I can do to be better in this area.

[00:11:29] Bill Stark: All right. Well, great to be back, everybody. We are talking today with Kevin Catlin. Kevin is the County Administrator of Kalamazoo County, Michigan, and we're having a great discussion about emotional intelligence and wanted to dig into this topic a little bit more. Kevin, I'm curious. Uh, now it was kind of switch gears from being self aware and having those discussions to being to entering into emotional situations.

[00:11:59] And I would just would love to get your thoughts on on how you and your team what we would say, lean into the tension, lean into those emotional situations. Many of us don't like to get be connected to emotional situations. Thank you so much. We tend to pull back, but we know that as leaders, we're supposed to be engaged and diffuse situations, address them, resolve them, you know, when it's appropriate.

[00:12:25] And so this is kind of the other half of EI. It's like, as a leader, We're not just supposed to sit back and let these emotional situations run crazy, right on our teams. We're supposed to kind of be engaged appropriately. And so I would love to hear any thoughts you have story on how to how to enter into those conversations.

[00:12:49] What to say? What's that been like for you as a local government leader in this entering into emotional situation?

[00:12:56] Kevin Catlin: Absolutely. I mean, well, we all know that county administrators or city managers never have to deal with any sort of tension in their jobs. So that's right. So, so, so, so this is a great question.

[00:13:08] Honestly. So, this is a great topic. So intentions and emotions start to rise. I believe it's really crucial for leaders to step in with a calm and again, composed approach. So I would say first and foremost, I believe in getting to Value and, and garner everyone's perspective in the situation.

[00:13:27] This involves to me and I say, underline active listening to their concerns and acknowledging their emotions. So it's important to create a safe space where everyone feels comfortable expressing themselves. And I think that, you know, so once all perspectives are heard and garnered, I try to identify common ground and facilitate a conversation that encourages a little bit of give and take, you know, the goal here is to help Everyone see the bigger picture in a line on a mutually beneficial solution.

[00:13:56] So sometimes this means mediating the conversation and guiding parties towards a compromise. And other times it may be about helping them understand each other's viewpoints and fostering empathy. So what I would say is. For me, it's by leaning into the tension and addressing it head on, rather than avoiding it and being argumentative.

[00:14:18] We can transform potentially these divisive situations into opportunity for growth and strengthened relationships. So it's about being proactive and ensuring that everyone feels respected and valued, you know, kind of throughout that whole process.

[00:14:33] Bill Stark: Yes. Yeah, that, that's very helpful. And I almost see it as a, as a formula.

[00:14:39] I like what you said in the beginning, you know, we, we, a we, we, we remain composed ourselves 'cause we don't want to add to the drama. Right. and then you said get each other's, get each person's perspective. Listen to them. Active listening you mentioned. Mm-Hmm. . And I like this idea of empathy. You know, it's empathy's kind of a popular word now and Mm-Hmm.

[00:14:59] When I think of empathy, Kevin, I think of, saying things like. Wow, John, that must be tough. Or, wow, I can't imagine how you feel. Because people want to be connected to, they want to, they want to believe that you understand where they're coming from, right? That's kind of the point of empathy, is I'm relating to you.

[00:15:20] So I love this idea of expressing empathy. And then to your, to your last point, being sure we're all aligned at whatever the, the goal is, the outcome is, that we're all

[00:15:33] Kevin Catlin: Absolutely. You know, absolutely. And I'd say, you know, Bill, really, empathy, you know, is, it really is kind of commingled in the, the, in the I would say the tenants of the E and I, you know, it's really about putting ourselves in other's shoes so that you can help others.

[00:15:53] Better support them and motivate the team fostering a more inclusive and supportive working environment So, you know, it's it's conceptually I would say Intertwined with the principles, but yeah, it's it's a it's a great thing. Yep.

[00:16:09] Bill Stark: Yeah people people want to be known They want to be understood. They want to be heard And and for us to slow down as leaders and value that, you know, just I know a lot of folks, me included at times.

[00:16:21] We're just so focused on the result. Get the job done. We just skip over the human element. You know, the these people.

[00:16:29] Kevin Catlin: Absolutely.

[00:16:31] Bill Stark: Yeah, as we wrap up, I had one more question I wanted you to comment on and share locally, kind of a local issue there, Kalamazoo County. I know that you all had some recent tornadoes in your community a few months ago, and, and I suspect during that event or those events citizens emotions ran high, probably staff, probably commissioners, you know, everybody's excited, frustrated, and.

[00:16:57] You know, wanting action or whatever, and I would love to hear how how your team responded to that you know, from from an emotional perspective, how you connected, how you dealt with that in a real life scenario of the tornadoes.

[00:17:15] Kevin Catlin: Yes, absolutely. So for, you know, obviously those that do not know Kalamazoo County, the southern part of the county sustained an EF2 tornado on May 7th, 2024.

[00:17:26] And so, you know, we're a couple of months after here in, in, in recovering from that. And yes, you know, when you're dealing with an emergency management situation, tension, tension is extremely high. And, you know, this was indeed a very challenging time for Kalamazoo County. Emotions were understandably high among citizens who are dealing with loss and uncertainty, right?

[00:17:51] So the emotional intensity naturally extended to. commissioners, elected officials, staff, and obviously we all felt a deep responsibility to support our community. During this crisis, I would say, you know, the importance of EI became incredibly clear to me as a leadership team. We had to remain calm and composed to provide effective support.

[00:18:11] for and reassurance to the public. One key lesson was the critical role of communication and as cliche and basic as that sounds, keeping the lines of communication open, transparent, and empathetic helped to alleviate some of the anxiety and confusion. I believe that we also learned the value of being.

[00:18:32] Present and visible. So being on the ground, listening to concerns and providing real time updates, we were able to build trust and demonstrate our commitment to communities well being and the visibility helped to mitigate some of the tensions and provide a sense of stability for our team. The experience, I believe, underscored the need for empathy and support from one another.

[00:18:58] So we held debriefing sessions where staff could share their experiences and emotions, which was not initially part of the plan but we wanted to make sure that happened, which helped us collectively process the situation collectively. And this not only strengthened our team cohesion, but also highlighted the importance of taking care of our emotional health in order to better serve the community.

[00:19:20] So I would say really overall navigating this, this crisis taught us that EI is not just about managing emotions, but about. Using those skills to enhance communication, build trust and foster resilience. And, you know, these lessons made us more cohesive and better equipped to handle future challenges, which is what we're really prepared to do today.

[00:19:43] Bill Stark: Yeah, right. I can see this is these these little crises that come up larger, small crises. They test us. They test our ability to remain calm and focused and composed and empathetic. And I suspect over time, as we encounter more of these, Type examples. Obviously we get better at it. We get more skilled.

[00:20:03] We learn how to respond better. So I love the fact that, well, I don't love the fact there's a tornado, but just the idea that you all were able to hone your skills and apply your skills of E. I. is it's really awesome. Any as as we wrap up here. This has been very kind of enlightening. I love, I love your kind of the practical nature of your comments on E I today, Kevin, are there any sort of final recommendations or thoughts that you would have as a leader?

[00:20:32] You know, the folks listening to this podcast or public works leaders and, you know, libraries and city county officials, police chiefs and so forth. Any sort of partying concept or advice that you might share to us as we, as we kind of wrap up today?

[00:20:49] Kevin Catlin: Yes, absolutely. I think that, in the public sector, we're in this fishbowl, right?

[00:20:53] So, everything that we do matters. And so I'd say the first thing that I would say is that EI to me, Incorporates this concept of role modeling. So by demonstrating EI in our actions and decisions. We set that standard for others to follow. And I think that's super important because we want to build that, that team that the community really needs.

[00:21:18] And it's all about building trust and rapport. So we're seen as approachable in, if we, you know, embellish and, and, and incorporate EI in our, in our daily. Lives in our practice, we become more reliable, which encourages to me, open communication and transparency within the team in the community. And then it helps us obviously with continuous improvement.

[00:21:40] We should be seeking feedback and engaging in self reflection to continually improve, not just EI skills, but all of our skills. And those are super important. So these concepts of EI, uh, help us build trust and rapport, role model within the organization and community.

[00:21:59] Bill Stark: Yeah, well, I love the idea of the role model.

[00:22:02] I'm so glad you sort of took it back to that, Kevin, because we have a saying that skills are taught in attitudes are caught

[00:22:11] Kevin Catlin: now. Yes,

[00:22:12] Bill Stark: skills are taught. You know how to use word that that's a skill, but attitudes are caught and they're caught by me observing you, the leader. So, yeah, it's a great reminder to all the leaders.

[00:22:23] Listening to this is that people are watching and they're watching whether or not we have composure, whether we have compassion, empathy or connecting and active listening, all the things you talked about. So really a great reminder for everybody listening to the podcast today to, continue to grow and invest in this area of emotional intelligence.

[00:22:43] Kevin Catlin: Absolutely.

[00:22:44] Bill Stark: Well, thank you so much, Kevin, for, for being with us. I appreciate you taking the time and I want to just thank you for your work there at Kalamazoo County and the folks that you lead you sound like a great, a very humble, engaged leader, and I just really appreciate your investment in other leaders around the country today with your thoughts and also want to say congratulations on the wedding coming up and best wishes to that.

[00:23:09] That's That's awesome. And so, so congratulations on that. Good to have you with us.

[00:23:14] Kevin Catlin: Yes. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. So, so much fun. And, uh, Bill, happy Friday and enjoy the weekend.

[00:23:21] Bill Stark: Yeah. Sounds great, Kevin. Have a, have a great time and, uh, look forward to talking to you soon. Hey everybody.

[00:23:27] Uh, thanks for joining us we hope that this has been educational for you, informative. If you have other topics you'd like for us to cover in our podcast, just let us know. Bill at leadergov. com, but have a great day. God bless. Take care.