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It is great to have you with us today at the LeaderGov podcast. My name is Bill Stark and one of the cofounders of LeaderGov along with my business partner, Tim Fenbert. And we're based in Atlanta, Georgia. And as you may know, if you've been listening to our podcast, we have a real passion, a real desire to serve local government leaders to help them be their best to help them thrive and have great teams that do wonderful work for communities all around the country. And we have a really special guest with us today, Jeff McManus, is with us. He is currently the director of landscaping and waste services at the University of Mississippi Ole Miss over in Oxford, Mississippi.

Jeff has written a couple of books, I want to get him to share briefly of his background, but he's written a couple of books we'll talk about in a second. And we have a great topic today. And it's it's maybe geared a bit more to your middle managers and supervisors who you're asking to lead frontline employees to make an impact on your community. So we think that maybe for public works, public safety parks, this might be a really

engaging podcast, you're welcome to send this out to other folks in your city or county. So without further ado, I'd love to say Hello, Jeff. Good morning. How are you?

Hey, Bill, so good to be with you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, you bet. It's wonderful to have you here on the podcast, I just

after you and I've talked a bit and I know that your your message resonates with a lot of local government agencies. Because the work you do in the university setting actually correlates really well. With the same type of issues that we see in local government. That's it, particularly in the area of public works.

transportation, parks, but but I think brought more even more broadly just people, leading people and forming effective teams, and you really tapped into that topic. So I'm excited to, to learn a bit more from me today in our audience as well. Jeff, tell us about a little bit about your background, if you would just take a minute. And then I would love for you to tell us about a couple of the books you've written. One of them, we actually mailed out to some folks last Christmas as a Christmas gift. And it's called weeders to leaders. But tell us a bit about your background and about these two books that you've written here lately.

Well, Bill really honored to be here with you and all the good work that you and Tim are doing. I think we're in we're in very parallel pathways and helping grow people and develop a good teams. I got my start early in landscaping, my dad always had me on a tractor or doing some work. And I really resented the fact that being outside that I never wanted to do that as a career. And I turned around and got a degree in it. And we always jokingly and affectionately say horticulture is a degree in manual labor. And so I've enjoyed that. It's been fun. I never knew the careers and the opportunities that were available in the horticulture world out. When I graduated Auburn, I was fortunate enough to go down to Orlando and work at a five star resort there, Grand Cypress resort, and within a year, I had the opportunity to move down to Miami to a five star resort and Turnberry Isle resort and club there in North Miami. That was a lot of fun. It was eye opening culture was different. Extreme, you know, not only with the plants different, but the whole, every environment was different, a lot of South American culture, Cuba. And so it was it was a great learning tool for me and learning how to interact and deal with people of all cultures. And then fortunately, after I've been there, about 11 years, I got asked to come to Ole Miss of all places, and it was time for me to make a change. It was great. I enjoyed biscuits, sweet tea and grits. So I enjoyed coming to Oxford, Mississippi, and enjoying the time here and interacting with folks here. But but we had that culture that a lot of a lot of people experience, you know, that culture where people just didn't care they were doing the bare minimum to keep their job. But you know, I found people hiding in the bushes. I found people doing a lot of other things besides working. And we had to get that culture turned around because the vision was to create an amazing campus to create this five star campus to help with recruit recruiting to help bring top students into this beautiful campus so they could go on and do great things. So that that whole turnaround process

within within two years, we had flipped the culture. You know, we had a lot of work to do still, but but we won our first national championship as far as the landscape beautification. And were recognized as one of the most beautiful campus by professional grounds maintenance society. And so that was a big, a big turnaround and a big, you know, step forward. But a lot of that led to the book, the book and how we did that, and how we had to get by in the vision, and get people at a state level, who are not getting paid a lot. How do we get them to buy in? How do we get them to want to be here. And so we just wrote a book about it. And now I talk about it.

Hey, yes, and thank you for that, I couple things that I wanted to share just about you and the university, for anyone listening, if you want to go to Amazon and just search for this book called weeders, to leaders, W E. D, ers, weeders, to leaders, and a secondary book called cultivate, which is

some less a little bit of a workbook, but it's somewhat about tailgate meetings and, and communicating with teams on a regular basis. So check out those two books, particularly leaders to leaders and maybe even get your team to read that book. Together. It's an easy read, but very powerful stories in it. You know, Jeff, I actually went to Ole Miss, I graduated from Ole Miss A long time ago, 1983, back in the stone age.

And I remember when we first met, you told me


you conveyed to your staff, the importance of a campus, that's excellent, and how it draws the parents to want to have their kids there. And I thought, My gosh, I've never heard of that, in terms of connecting something. Manual labor type efforts to this ultimate vision of a university to help them be sustainable. I mean, what a great, can you tell us how that came? That came to pass, because, you know, everybody has a vision, and it's flowering, it's machine. It's beautiful. And it's, but gee, you connected the vision to, to revenue for the university. Right? Right. So for me, the vision has to be practical. It has to be memorable. It has to be repeatable, right? So we have these lone visions that you know, higher education. We're notorious for creating these flowery words that nobody ever I mean, they look great on the website. But nobody ever knows what they mean, or every carries that with you. And so if you can't carry it with you, to me, it doesn't mean you can't use it, you can't use it as not practicals. So I'm a very applicable type leader, where it's got to make sense. So we our vision for our department was simply two words, cultivate greatness, cultivate greatness. And so we're over the years that has taken on several different meanings. But what we're really trying to do is, cultivate a campus, grow a campus, make it so that it's the prettiest, so that we recruit great students here, who go on and do great things. So there's a study out there that says 62% of prospective college students who have not made a decision on whether they're going to university will decide in the first few minutes of a college visit, the first few minutes, they will decide if they're coming, that's $100,000 decision over four years, if they're gonna come based on the appearance, the curb appeal, how the landscaping looks, how the buildings, look how clean it is, those were the top factors in that. And it's like, that's us. That's what we do. And so we're really not in the landscaping business bill. We're really in the recruiting business. And it's true for Parks and Recs as is true for government is true for our towns that we're always selling. We are in the recruiting business. And we if we want to recruit top businesses, if we want to recruit recruit top people to live in our community, a parents matters because the parents is that feel of safety gives that feel of hey, I like this place. I can see myself settling here and enjoying it here. I often refer to it bill as the landscaping is like a sunset. Everybody loves a sunset and everything looks good in front of a sunset. And so if your landscaping looks good, people want to be a part of you know, it's going to chances are real good people want to be a part of that community. So, so we've connected that like Dr. Hannah gay.

She came a few years ago we came

within a whisper of curing HIV, which she is an alumni here at Ole Miss. So what we tell our staff is, maybe in a small way, years ago, we helped recruit her here because of the the appearance, right? So maybe in a small way, we're actually helping her in her research because we were a small, small part of that, right? And that gives us meaning that gives us purpose that we're here we are with backpack blowers, and weed eaters and and mowers. And yet we have a small tie to greatness, to the greatness of Dr. Hanna gay. Or maybe it's Bill Parson who's running NASA, who graduated from here, maybe we helped recruit him in a small, small way, we are part of that space program. Right? And so you create that connection with your team of of the bigger picture of what you really do. Yeah, yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you about that you've kind of already answered it some and that is, how do we get

hourly wage workers who have those heavy backpacks and are out fixing sidewalks and sweating in the summer?

Who really are generally I mean, these are good people, hard working people, but how do we get them to turn their attention?

And believe something big like that, you just have to repeat it a lot? Or how do you get buy in so that how do we get them to actually believe this awesome idea that you just share, which I think is wonderful. How do we do that? With with with those teams? But that's a great question, Bill, it's one I get asked. And it's, it all starts with a messenger.

Okay, if people trust no and like us as a leader, then they will listen to our message. So if I've got to set the example, I've got to

affectionately call this I've got a weed by example, I've got to be willing to get out there and be with my team, interact with them set the model the way, what is it that Jeff expects, doesn't mean I have to go out and cut grass every day and do that. But I've got to be willing to be engaged in a part of the process. And so there's got to be the respect that we like, Jeff, we know him, we appreciate him. If that once I've get that.

Then what's really powerful is if I can sit with some of my key leaders, and and come up with what that vision is, what that purpose is, and and I don't do it in a vacuum by myself. And so when we create a cultivating greatness, actually a 20 year old college student came to me and leaned against my door when we were all going through this process. And he goes, I think we're cultivating greatness here on this campus. And it had to sit with me a few, a few few minutes. And I was like, Yeah, that's really good. So kind of pitched it to everybody else. And it's like that, that statement doesn't always have to come from the leader. Many businesses who are run by an owner, that's usually that vision is going to come from the owner. And that's normal. But when we're involved in a state municipality, a college campus, a Parks and Rec, nobody particularly owns that. So we get to be we're the most powerful person in the organization in our department. So we get to set that framework up so that our staff can contribute and figure that out what that is, but it starts with me the messenger, and then they'll listen to the message once they respect me.

Hmm, yeah, I know, earlier, you said something to the effect of

by leading by example, or weeding by example. I think you said it demonstrates that we're competent, that we know the business, we can actually get in there and fix along or whatever, I guess, to some degree, that we have character,

and that we have chemistry and empathy. And you know, in our workshops with local governments, we talk a lot about chemistry and empathy. And so is there anything else that you would add in that whole mix of getting in the fight with the team and pitching in I do, like your word chemistry, and I like this idea of empathy. What does that what does that by the leader? Well, thanks, Bill that the three C's as I often refer to is, and I didn't make these up. These are something that true at Kathy, who started Chick fil A, these were three big the three big C's and developing and growing people and attracting talent. And so if if, if I'm the leader, if I have character, people can trust me. But that's not that's not the only thing that matters. I've also got to be competent, which means that I have the skills and ability to learn and do my job doesn't mean

I know everything. But people say, hey, he can figure it out, I trust this guy's gonna get it figured out, we, we put our weight behind him. And then the third one, you know, you can have both of those. But if you don't have the third one, it's still not going to work. And that's chemistry, you've got to be willing and able to get along with people, you cannot be that kind of leader that everybody says like, as soon as you walk out of the room, they're, they're mumbling under their breath, about you, you've got to take that respect to when you walk out of the room, they're still wanting to be on the team, and have all the respect in the world for you. So those three are huge. So character, competency, in chemistry. And so in that chemistry part, where we're getting along with people, there's a big part of that is empathy, that we can empathize with our teammates and, and what they're doing our staff do hard work, they in a engage with the public, they're doing things that a lot of times, they're never been thanked for, and appreciated for it as a leader, that's our job to step in. And to help fill in that gap. And those times to, to appreciate those people as well.

Yeah, I

wanted to ask you something else that I know is a part of your process there at Ole Miss. And it's something that your team rallies around.

If I'm not mistaken, actually, your I think your team, all your team members have business cards as well, which I wanted to ask you about. But this idea of core values, you know, our heart, we're going to act and behave and again, kind of like the vision, Jeff, it's like, oh, yeah, those are on a plaque at city hall in the lobby. And I don't know what I'm what they are, but they're there somewhere. It's like, how do we develop them? Come up with a list of of operational or core values? And then

how do we communicate them? Keep them fresh? How do we hold each other accountable to the core values?

And because I think and you know, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. That's if we act a certain way. And we all agree to it, the odds of us being successful probably go up. But could you just speak to the whole idea of the core values? Well, core values, I did not realize the power in that. until probably about 1213 years ago, when I did an exercise. I was challenged by a speaker I'd hired to come in and talk to our landscapers. And he saw some of the training we were doing. He loved it. He said, Man, this is great. He goes, but you guys don't have your What are your core values? And I told him, You know what I thought our core values were and he goes, but but I don't see them anywhere. He goes, I don't hear you talking about your core values. And so he quoted to us,

the Green Beret, he was a former Green Beret, and he quoted the Greenbrae creed to us. And it was powerful. I mean, it was very, very, you could tell that it was in it was a part of his being that he believed this, that this is who he was. And so

it challenged me to think about, who are we? Who are we as a landscape department? I mean, I know in my mind that yeah, you know, we get so busy and doing our list. And we can stay busy every single day, and never talk about our core values. I mean, people do it every day. But we stopped on a bad weather day, I think it was pouring down rain outside. And we brought everybody in. And we said hey, what do you guys want to be known for? over your career? It was really that simple. And our staff just started giving us feedback. Hey, we want to be known for this. Do we lead by example, Hey, we were not we want to be known that we adapt and overcome to our circumstances, and all these great things that I hadn't necessarily even thought of. And we just started writing them down. Few A few days later, we said, hey, let's let's get back together. Anybody who wants to come back, over 60% of our team came back and helped us get their what we ended up calling our landscape creed. And it's our core values. And so we modeled this out. I mean, we developed it and brought it all about, and we actually posted it on the wall. And then we you know, everybody liked Yeah, that's us. That's what that's what we want to do. Everybody agreed with it. Then we put it in a really a nice, you know, not just a big

greet up on the wall. And now every Monday morning, I've noticed kind of sounds quirky and weird, but every Monday morning after our meeting, we say it together. And just to remind us because I didn't make this up. They're not my values, they're our values. And so that was to me the power i i am huge and creating ownership. I

feel like that's a great motivator when somebody is motivated intrinsically from the inside. Right? It's, it's not the carrot and the stick. It's, it's the, it's the part where you're excited about being at work, because you know, you have a purpose you, you hear your core values. And this is how we, this is what we try to live up to. Well, I found that a lot of the drama went away, a lot of the ying yang in a crew went away because we were aspiring to be at this higher level. Well, it didn't take long until our staff had this thing memorized. I mean, they're rarely looking at the thing, when we're saying it on Monday mornings, and they started using this in the field light, they would talk about it. And then in hiring people, they would ask people, What does it mean for you to lead by example, that's one of our core values lead by example, because they were wanting to get people are in alignment with their values. The accountability comes when people all are empowered with the same skills and values, and they feel like they have ownership. And so we saw this. In another training program, we do call landscaping University, where everybody goes through it, and they get a certificate. And we saw the accountability increase. It wasn't Jeff, checking on the crew, it was now horizontal, where they were holding each other accountable, blew my mind, because they were going Hey, Charlie, you know, that's not our standard, hey, you know, that's not the way we do it here. And they were all empowered with the quality, the the pride of ownership. So those all build together, the the core values, the landscape, university, all the different type things is to help build a person's character, their competency, and to build that chemistry amongst our team.

Yeah, thank you, thank you for that. And I just want to challenge and encourage the people listening, that this idea of core values,

it's not a plaque on the wall, it's it's living, it's breathing, it's active, and it's not really even yours. It's ours. It's the teams. And I love this idea of repeating the message. Some things we just have to hear 1020 3040 50 times before it sinks in, and we begin to believe and actually, I wonder, Jeff, I suspect people that don't buy into it end up being so uncomfortable, they leave Have you ever had that happen? Oh, yeah, many times, many times. It's a self selection. And, and that's a win for them. And it's a win for us. I mean, if you don't enjoy this kind of culture, you you don't stay around long. Because we're a producing culture. We're a productive culture. We're an efficient culture. We're a culture of leaders that are continually getting better. We're not, we're not a culture of perfection. We still make mistakes. We, we made a huge one Monday, and we learned from them and we grow from them. But the difference was Monday, when we made the mistake, I had several people stand up and own it. And not not pointing fingers at anybody else. But they owned it. And I knew we were in a good place at that point. But But going back to your point, someone said, People leak, right, we leak. And so we have to continually fill them back up with a vision. If I'm not repeating the vision as a leader, I'm not doing really what's needed to create a motivated team of intrinsic motivation. I need to remind people of our purpose, remind remind people of our vision, and what we really do not not just always be in production mode. This is what we got to do at nine o'clock, 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock. But you've kind of as a leader, you got to step back. And sometimes that's very uncomfortable as a leader to step back and be a visionary leader. We always want to think about okay, that's the mayor. That's the chancellor. That's the president that's not know, at every level. At every level of the organization. You need a visionary leader, you need someone who is reminding people of the bigger picture, because the mayor doesn't have time to come and motivate your team every day. Right? That's us. That's what we do.

Yeah, yeah. I'd love to touch on just just for a minute. And here's something that

I recall from your book, I believe, leaders to leaders. And you mentioned something just a moment ago, you said that you hired a speaker to come speak to the team, military person. I know that from your book, I think from your book, you said that one day you took your entire team back to Auburn, to see how another university does landscaping and can we learn from them?

I know also in the book leaders to leaders, you talked about small wins, like getting new boots for the for the team or a new uniforms. But I just I really want to go back to this idea of like,

as the leader, how are we equipping and investing in the team, you know, you know, what I what we hear all the time, Jeff is we don't have time to get on a bus and go to Auburn. That's a whole day of our, we're just too busy to do that. Now we know that we're only busy to the degree that we

can maybe prioritize properly. But I just love this investment in going to look at other cities, other communities, other agencies. And it shows them that they're special that they're worth investing in a day of exploratory learning with another peer in the industry. So could you just speak a little bit to this whole idea of investing in and equipping and spending time with with the team educating them those types of things? Well, that's, that's a real challenge, because we are so caught up in our list and being quote, busy. And here's the thing is, if you're busy, and I'm gonna say this is gonna make some people upset, but you're really being lazy. Because it's easier to be busy than it is to be intentional, right? And to do things that are out of your comfort zone. It was easier for me to say we're busy. It's summertime, I've only been here a couple of months. Why in the world would I started taking my staff to go visit we did. We went to Auburn, we went to Georgia, we went to Vanderbilt, we went to Alabama, we I mean, we didn't stop at one. And we went to Callaway Gardens, we went to private landscaping companies, I was all in the selling business to share with our people, what we are aspiring to be. Let's let's get out of our little world. And we want a better mechanic shop. We're gonna look at top notch mechanic shops, we want to better we want better detail in our flowerbeds, we're gonna go look at the Biltmore, we're gonna go look at top notch areas that do it. Right, right. And so we're gonna quit making excuses. And we're going to invest in the time. So we've done that over the years, over and over and over again, I don't go on as many trips as I used to, but I still send people we go to conferences, and we don't go to conferences, just as a reward, and hey, go have a good time. I mean, we we want them engaged in doing something we want them first to, to at least to to make three good contacts with their peers that they can call on when they run in to problems. And then the other thing is we want to look at products, we want to testing products, we want to set up demos, all these types of things. And there's a lot of great things. If you will think about growing your people, it's a 10x process, if you plant the seed in water, you're gonna get a big crop, you're gonna get the fir, you're gonna get the fruit of that. But if you never plant the seeds, and the only thing you do is just complain and say we're busy, and you don't invest in your people. Well don't get frustrated when you keep getting the same results, right? That's the definition, apparently of insanity because you just keep doing the same thing over again. So what we have here, here's a great little story. I had a real problem with one of my leaders who would not blow off his hard surfaces. When he mowed grass. He left clippings everywhere at lunchtime, and he'd blow it off at the end of the day. But it during lunch, you'd go to lunch, and literally the clippings everywhere were well, we might have a visitor during lunchtime. And that looks really bad. So when we went to a college campus, it was terrible. They had left grass clippings everywhere. It was terrible. And when we got back in the van, I asked everybody in the van what was their first impression and that gentleman spoke up about those grass clippings. And I never ever had to remind him to cut to blow those glatt grass clippings at lunchtime ever again, ever. And he just made it he said he was like it was terrible. It looked terrible. And he clicked, it clicked. And so that one trip has paid dividends for over 20 years of his career. He just recently retired. But this whole career that he made sure he had that eye for detail, because he understood it. The first impressions he understood first impressions because he got to go to a college campus and experience it himself.

Yeah, what a great story. And I think you know, that story of traveling around to these different

peer campuses and other industry, landscaping, it just kind of supports the vision cultivating greatness, you know, because if we're not looking at the best, or our peers, you know, and seeing what

they're doing to get better, then we're just kind of in our own little bubble, you know, we're really not growing and stretching. And, and yes, it takes time. And yes, it takes a little money, but you know that we can overcome those two things if we won't do anything. Yeah, we can. And now we have people come in and visited our campus doing because they're reading the book, and they're, they're calling us and see, and they want to come. And it's, it's great now, because now our people are realizing that other people are coming to see their work. So they've become our, they've become really good tour guides, and sharing with them. So, you know, it takes a lot of trust, to let your people go out and lead a whole nother group of people because you never know what they're going to say. And so you're hoping that they're, you know, my frontline people, you know, they're out there sharing some of our frontline people who are sharing or some of my worst, as far as attitude. And when we started doing some of this stuff, I'll tell you, I'll tell you a quick story.

I don't know why I did this. It was just inspiration. I took I started taking our guys to the local library, can you believe that? The local library, and I asked the librarian to show us how to check out books show us how to check out audiobooks because I wanted to invest in their learning. And what I was really thinking is, maybe they get in their car, they'll push in that CD, this was back when CDs were big. And you could listen to an audio book. Well, this one person who kind of kind of been on the negative side. He really bought into that and he really started listening to audiobooks. Well, I didn't realize that of course, you know, I'm not tracking what these guys are doing on their own time. But I saw him two or three years after we went to the library, and I asked him, I said, are you still listening to audiobooks? He goes, Oh, yeah, he goes, Uh, I'm listening to Phil Jackson right now. You know, Phil Jackson was Michael Jordan's coach, about national about winning championships. I'm like, I'm thinking to myself, Bill, that is a win. This guy went from the, from the dark side to the light side, because of what he was putting into his mind. And how he was who he was driving in his car with he started driving with champions. He started hanging out with winners. And he became one. Well now, I put him with people on our tours, I would have never done that 15 years ago. So

crazy. Wow. Yeah, crazy. It is crazy. It's just me what a beautiful it's investing in people. And I.

Speaking of that, I want to, we're getting close to the end here. But Jeff, I wanted to really encourage everybody to buy this book leaders to leaders. Because really what you just share there, the library story is about, you know, learning, learning, and growing, and reading books and listening to CDs and so forth. Podcasts. And I think that the book leaders to leaders could be an awesome sort of group.

Read a book sort of book club exercise, I really want to encourage you to do that go to Amazon and type in leaders to leaders. And then one other thing I want to just bring up that maybe we can talk about next time if we do this again.

And that is the whole idea of what you call tailgate meetings. Some people call them stand up meetings, daily stand up meetings, whether you're in office and finance, or in the shop in public works, you're going to go about to go out in the day. Of course this bleeds over into staff meetings, and all kinds of things. But the tailgate concept is, are we on the same team? Are we prepared? Or is our mind focused? Are we are we in a mentally good place to provide excellence today, it's encouragement.

All sorts of things come into play with these tailgate meeting stand up meetings. I think that would be a really good podcast to talk about some time if you if you want to hear that. Let us know. And we'll definitely explore that. But any any final thoughts as we kind of close up here, Jeff? Well, the the tailgate, huddles or any, anything you can do to generate conversation around

attitudes, principles, those things that not are not necessarily work related tasks, but they they play a big part of, of how we operate, it really affects the way we interact with each other. When we started doing these tailgate huddles. It really changed our culture we call them L to L leader to leader where we just stop and interact with our folks. We might show a video, I may just share a story. But my role is to get my frontline team members talking and get them talking about this and I do it in small groups. I found if I did this in one big group, that that that that one or two people who were not bought in, they're going to do something

undermine the whole process. So I learned to do this in small groups. And I'm telling you this was powerful. This is one of the I mean, if, when people ask me, What's the one thing I can do to start today, changing my culture? What's one thing today with state employees with, you know, people who, who don't have to, you know, they don't have to be there to go and do just enough to give out? What's the one thing you would do, Jeff, tell me, I would say start a tailgate huddle, start a leader to leader, whatever you want to call it. But you're doing something where you're investing in inside of your people write in their attitude, and their beliefs, and so forth. And so that's what cultivate was written for it's short stories, to give leaders a way to share and to talk about 32 different principles in their words and things like that. What does it mean to be dependable, and it gives us a way to talk about it, it's proactive, as opposed to waiting to that guy never shows up for work, because he's, he's not dependable now, now I'm writing them up. While you're doing it ahead of time, now, you're going to talk about it ahead of time, where you're getting these core values out there and discussing them, I have found that to be very powerful. And you talking about the ones who don't agree with you, what I have found that many times they self select out, and that's a win, that's a win for everybody. I mean, it's not. And then I have found that like the previous story, I told you, they come into the light, you know, they were kind of hanging in the middle and dark. And then they ended up hey, I kind of see the light. And they click and I've had several light that who've clicked and had become great leaders. And I've had several who've self selected out. So it's a good way to pour, you know, good, clean water to further to water those plants to water your people. And if you're not proactively doing it, guess what's growing weeds? Right? You let you let in the culture grow itself. And so I realized as a leader, I couldn't be passive. I had to be proactive. And so this, this is kind of what I wrote this book for was to help leaders be proactive.

Yeah, yeah. For again, those three, those of you listening, the book is called cultivate. And you can get that on Amazon. I did want to let everybody know, that's listening that Jeff does, periodically speaking events around the country, to both local government agencies, as well as universities and others, around this topic of leadership and developing effective teams and building that chemistry, that morale that focus on greatness and excellence. And it's been a real pleasure to get to speak to you today, Jeff, thank you for investing in your people and caring for your folks enough to, to push and stretch and, you know, do what you need to do to really let them know they're valued, and that their work is important. And they can make a difference in someone else's life. And so I appreciate that message that you've put out there now for so many years. Thank you, Bill. Thanks. Thanks for what you and Tim are doing in your organization. And it's so important to keep doing the good work. There's a lot out there that the need is, is plenty. And I hope you'll keep keep at it. And thank you so much for having me. What an honor to be here with you and in your audience. Thank you.

Well, I hope you've enjoyed this podcast, everybody. Thank you again for contributing and being a part of our leadership learning,

environment, our community and if you have any other topics you'd like to have us consider for future podcast, let us know and we look forward to having you join us next time. Thank you. God bless